Do the tanks get first fire?

[plloyd1010]

Per rule 12.43, paragraph 3, AFV's in the open get first fire against foot units assaulting them from open terrain. So here is what we got:
   
The LT and INF from light woods (0613), and the 2x INF from open ground (0614) are going to assault the tanks (0514).
So do the tanks get a general first fire? Do get first fire, but the results only apply to the infantry from 0614? No first fire at all. Or something else?

[Shad]

Looks like you found a nice gap in the rules.

I'd propose first fire against the units that the rules say receive FF, and then another 2d6 regular roll for the group but only apply the 2nd set of results to the units coming from the trees.

No strong feelings about that though other than that there should be some FF, not none.

[joe_oppenheimer]

I'd play it that the troops coming out of the light woods have enough cover to prevent first fire (but that's my interpretation of the situation not a quote of the rules).

[Col. Sonichu]

Per rule 12.4.3, paragraph 3, AFV's in the open get first fire against foot units assaulting them from open terrain. So here is what we got:

The LT and INF from light woods (0613), and the 2x INF from open ground (0614) are going to assault the tanks (0514).
So do the tanks get a general first fire? Do get first fire, but the results only apply to the infantry from 0614? No first fire at all. Or something else?

My suggestion would be to do one roll. Any effects would apply immediately against the team assaulting from the open. Then the assaulting player calculates their assault value based on what remains of their troops. The defending player will use their original roll for the simultaneous exchange

[cjsiam]

I like the Col. approach.....
The FF degrades the guys coming at the tanks first.....
Then the same result applies to the remainder of the units as well....and the remnants of the open-ground attacking
INF and Tree hugging INF/LT are applied simultaneously....

[leonard]

I would say that the first fire advantage is lost because of the attack from the Light Woods.
Isn’t it similar to being up slope when some attackers assault from down slope and others simultaneously attack from the same level ? In this case the defender doesn’t get the + 1 for being up slope. No ?

[Grognard Gunny]

It ALL depends on how difficult one wishes the "Rules" to be. The entire system is NOT reality and cannot be made to be so. I tend to agree with Leonard.

GG

[plloyd1010]

When I started this, I put in a NO vote. Though in the game we played it as a limited first fire.

I reject Shad's and Col. Sonichu's suggestion because the first paragraph of 12.43 clearly expresses the point that units only get 1 shot in assault combat. Their idea gives the defenders 2 shots.

I agree with leonard and Grognard Gunny, and their presumed NO votes largely concurring with the precedent cited by leonard. Aside the that rational is the assumption that there is activity below the game scale, which I assume is to the most reasonable advantage to the actors without any particular fortune. (The crossfire rule is an example of this concept.) In a case such as this, I assume the LT involved is observing the tanks, thus aware of their focus of attention and stage the assault in the most reasonable sequence, given the situation and his observation.

The way we played it was to give the option of first fire against the infantry assaulting from the open, with any result being applied only to them. The issue of leader modifiers was not germane in this situation. I do expect that leader morale modifiers the LT should be applicable, but there wasn't one. In the end his roll was good (1 step and unit demoralized), and my roll only resulted in a morale check (which he passed).

[Shad]

Now that that's settled, please tell us how you ended up with such a bizarre force disposition to begin with!

[plloyd1010]

Oh, that... I am playing Deluge 35 with Craig (cjsiam). The setup instructions have the Germans place more than half their force on the northern map. The higher elevations on the north map are germane to the victory conditions, so I decided to make a fight over them. Craig has apparently decided to put the better part his armor into throwing me off the contested hill. I say 'apparently' because we are playing double-blind and I see most of the 2 companies in this part of fight.

Craig drove these 2 platoons in front of the infantry company I was trying to wedge into the woods. Well, change of plan, jump the tanks! Now we are at the question of first fire.

I'll annotate the on Saturday, after the poll closes, according to the result. Let's get some NO votes in before then.