Wadi and Gully

[leonard]

I recently realized that I wasn't playing wadies/gullies by the book... Do you ?
There are indeed problems with wadi/gully as described in the 4th Ed Terrain chart.

Rule Problem 1: the movement cost for entering a gully always is 2 (Foot), 3 (Mech), 4 (mot) whatever the situation. If you follow the gully line (without exiting it), I suspect it should be the same as the other terrain in the hex (usually clear) and not full cost.

Rule Problem 2: The gully location is "one elevation (20 meters) below adjacent terrain". That really is quite difficult in terms of LOS... In a gully, you seem to be in some sort of dark hole...If you apply that rule, seeing into or out of a gully is painful. On level terrain, you would be seen in a gully from 2 hexes distance. And from the gully, you would see at max 2 hexes on the ground level. I thing that's wrong.

To me, a gully should be treated exactly like a Sunken Railroad (see rules in France 40 or Road to Dunkirk) : 
* the gully is at the same level as the terrain around.
* any unit in the gully is automatically considered dug-in
* spotting: units outside the gully can only spot units in the gully if there are adjacent. Units in a gully can spot units in all other hexes normally.

Wadi/gully are often found in an Army at Dawn, Crete, Ethiopia and Fire & Sword.

What do you think ?

[Grognard Gunny]

This "two hex" sighting has been a bit of a problem for me. I was brought up on the idea that once the sight line between the lower and higher was interfered with the LOS was gone. (It is called a "Military Crest" for a reason!) In short, once there is an elevation line between the shooter and the target, the LOS is gonzo! To me this makes sense and makes "sighting" more realistic (and easier). However, the wisdom of "those who write/decipher the rules" have decreed that the elevation lines don't "really interfere" with the LOS. (That left me scratching my head AND attempting to rethink my every sight/move/shot under the "new" guidelines.... which I didn't mind.... BUT I had to relearn at least ten years of tactics as a result of.)

For your particular "reading" of the rule(s), you are in a gully and your LOS should end once the target is back from the gully's edge (indicated by an "elevation line" the unit are out of sight from one another. This is how it is in the real world AND how it should be! Taken further, it should be that way.... see the first paragraph above, in ALL circumstances of "elevation line between target and shooter".

So, while I believe that you are correct in your thinking/summation of the conundrum, the "powers that be" (for ease of on-line play, at the least) have it the "easier" way. (i.e. shoot from a hex back from the Military Crest.) It makes zero sense to me, but I play it that way in order to have opponents "on line".

I have noticed that the "readings" of the rules tend toward making it "easier" for the players to accomplish what it is that they wish to accomplish. See the most recent arguments about "TOT", as an example. Everyone seems to want to "shoot the hell" out of their opponent with their Arty and it doesn't "go that way" in real life... at least NOT to the extent that the TOT rules argument is going.

I spent twenty years of my life in the Marines, in Intelligence, so while I am not the best source of "rule readings", I try to keep things within the Logical Bounds of that lifetime of understanding and knowledge. I only put up with some of the "illogicalities" of the game to keep opponents. You must do the same.

GG

[Grognard Gunny]

This "two hex" sighting has been a bit of a problem for me. I was brought up on the idea that once the sight line between the lower and higher was interfered with, the LOS was gone. (It is called a "Military Crest" for a reason!) In short, once there is an elevation line between the shooter and the target, the LOS is gonzo! To me this makes sense and makes "sighting" more realistic (and easier). However, the wisdom of "those who write/decipher the rules" have decreed that the elevation lines don't "really interfere" with the LOS. (That left me scratching my head AND attempting to rethink my every sight/move/shot under the "new" guidelines.... which I didn't mind.... BUT I had to relearn at least ten years of tactics as a result of.)

For your particular "reading" of the rule(s), you are in a gully and your LOS should end once the target is back from the gully's edge (indicated by an "elevation line") the units are out of sight from one another. This is how it is in the real world AND how it should be! Taken further, it should be that way.... see the first paragraph above, in ALL circumstances of "elevation line between target and shooter".

So, while I believe that you are correct in your thinking/summation of the conundrum, the "powers that be" (for ease of on-line play, at the least) have it the "easier" way. (i.e. shoot from a hex back from the Military Crest.) It makes zero sense to me, but I play it that way in order to have opponents "on line".

I have noticed that the "readings" of the rules tend toward making it "easier" for the players to accomplish what it is that they wish to accomplish. (See the most recent arguments about "TOT", as an example.) Everyone seems to want to "shoot the hell" out of their opponent with their Arty and it doesn't "go that way" in real life... at least NOT to the extent that the TOT rules argument is going.

I spent twenty years of my life in the Marines, in Intelligence, so while I am not the best source of "rule readings", I try to keep things within the Logical Bounds of that lifetime of understanding and knowledge. I only put up with some of the "illogicalities" of the game to keep opponents. You must do the same.

GG

[leonard]

Given the low number of participants to this thread, it seems that few people actually play with wadi/gully or, if they do, they do not have any problem with these rules.
I'll try to be more specific.

1. By the 4th Ed Terrain Chart rules, a unit in a wadi/gully is one elevation below adjacent terrain (-20m). This is wrong, I think. A wadi/gully often is a dry river bed and the average depth should be about 3-5 m. That should be ground level with automatic Dug-in position. Note that Dug-in status does not change the combat modifiers (except for bombardment). 

2. See Fig 1        
What's the use of that gully along the 20m hill line on Crete map where the SS HMG stands ? If the SS HMG can't be dug-in on the edge of the gully (and the edge of the slope), it's a non-sense. Try to apply 4th Ed Terrain chart rules to the depicted situation: the SS unit is in a hole (-20m) on a 20m high hill = 0 m ! However, there's a slope in-between.  What about the LOS to the US HMG ?  It gives me some headache...
Generally speaking, any unit should be able to adopt a protected hull-down position on the bank of a gully, with a clear LOS all around. It is not the case if you put that unit in a -20m hole.
See Fig 2
When the Black Prince tank moves in 1309, the cost will be 2/3 MP (bridge) but if it stays there it won't be able to fire on the PzIII (no LOS from the hole !)

3. The Black Prince tank being in the gully in 1309 then moves to 1209. Cost is 3 MP, exactly as the tank was actually entering the gully. To my sense, the tank is "following" the gully line; cost should be 1.5 MP (clear).
Movement costs must be different if following a gully line.

4th Ed Terrain Chart
Mvt: 2 (foot), 4 (Mot), 3 (Mech)          Entrench allowed      Combat Mod: -1 DF, -1 AT, First Fire        Location/spotting: -20 m, Limiting Terrain

I propose the following change
Mvt: same (except if following gully)    Entrench allowed     Automatic Dug-in                                     Spotting: Limiting Terrain 

[sagunto]

This makes very good sense to me.

Thanks for having the care to analyze this matter and come up with the adjustment.

May we add your rule change to the draft SEAB&JF house rules?

[leonard]

This makes very good sense to me.

Thanks for having the care to analyze this matter and come up with the adjustment.

May we add your rule change to the draft SEAB&JF house rules?

Of course ! You will like it : easier to play while more realistic.
By the way, what are SEAB&JF house rules ?

[Tankodactyl]

The Southeast Arizona Beer & Jolly Foils = SEAB&JF.

Founded by the dreaded, T-Rex and Tambu. Mostly consisting of a bunch of their 8th BN 40th Armor-former-treadhead and US Army Reserve OPFOR staff amigos, like me, who like shared play in person or on VASSAL.

Ask the T-Rex to send you the latest set of draft house rules.

[plloyd1010]

Being very late, and at this point inconsequential, I'll throw my bit in.

Having started with wadis in Afrika Korps and Desert Rats, I've always understood wadis as inverted hills.Thus they were treated that way. The new movement chart allows vehicles to move over the sides, but not much else changed.

Gullies I think more as natural AT ditches. That would take care of the technical invisibility beyond 1 hex. And with the new movement chart, vehicles can move into them.

[leonard]

The Southeast Arizona Beer & Jolly Foils = SEAB&JF.

Founded by the dreaded, T-Rex and Tambu. Mostly consisting of a bunch of their 8th BN 40th Armor-former-treadhead and US Army Reserve OPFOR staff amigos, like me, who like shared play in person or on VASSAL.

Ask the T-Rex to send you the latest set of draft house rules.

Sounds like a nice bunch of friends !
Dear T-Rex, could you send it to me ?

[leonard]

Being very late, and at this point inconsequential, I'll throw my bit in.

Having started with wadis in Afrika Korps and Desert Rats, I've always understood wadis as inverted hills.Thus they were treated that way. The new movement chart allows vehicles to move over the sides, but not much else changed.

Gullies I think more as natural AT ditches. That would take care of the technical invisibility beyond 1 hex. And with the new movement chart, vehicles can move into them.

Wadis/Gullies in Desert Rats / AK are at ground level ; there's nothing like being 20m lower. So, there was no LOS problem for being in a gully, at that time.
4th Ed rules made entry of a gully by a vehicle possible. However, the -20m location ruined the whole thing.
And you have to carefully read the 4th Ed Terrain charts notes to realize it.