A haiku to uselessness: the ATR

[campsawyer]

Didn't the German 75mm IG get discussed in a similar vein at some point in the past? Other than crossfire bonus and scaring INF out of trucks or half-tracks with the AT value (both of which are useful), that 4-12 DF doesn't accomplish much.

You still have much to try with the lowly 75mm IG. Combined it with 2xGREN and you have a nice 16 column firepower. Also remember the 75mm IG is one of the few guns that can move on it's own. In a town defensive situation this can be handy. Finally, need a roadblock that is more than an 81mm mortar. Dig this in along a road and really slow down your opponent as they will have to deploy to attack it and it might not be as easy as it looks.

Just like ATR's creativity is the word for these units.

[Poor Yorek]

^

I didn't suggest that the IG can't do anything, just "not much." From context, I thought it was clear that I was simply pointing out a unit of *relative* weakness (or, perhaps, a unit whose DF factor does not correspond to its actual utility?) that, as I recalled, had been discussed previously in the same vein as the ATR.

Of course, in your stack suggestion, one now brings in the three-units-in-a-hex col shift along with the artillery col shift. So DF and BF attacks vs. that stack will be punishing in return. Is the added firepower to shift to the 16DF col worth the shifts to be suffered by the Grens (and the IG itself) against enemy fire?

[Michael Murphy]

You have to weigh the risk versus gain ratio. If your 16 DF attack can blast something juicy, with good column shifts, then who cares if the stack is vulnerable to return fire? You just have to pick your spots to set up a "deathstar" stack. That remain true regardless of which game system you use.

[campsawyer]

^

I didn't suggest that the IG can't do anything, just "not much." From context, I thought it was clear that I was simply pointing out a unit of *relative* weakness (or, perhaps, a unit whose DF factor does not correspond to its actual utility?) that, as I recalled, had been discussed previously in the same vein as the ATR.

Of course, in your stack suggestion, one now brings in the three-units-in-a-hex col shift along with the artillery col shift. So DF and BF attacks vs. that stack will be punishing in return. Is the added firepower to shift to the 16DF col worth the shifts to be suffered by the Grens (and the IG itself) against enemy fire?

In all my plays, I have yet to see a unit that does not have a function, which I believe is more important than strength or weakness, as all the units have both. What function a unit brings to a scenario allows you to use all your units rather than discounting them because they are to "weak". If you think this, you well keep all of your "weaker" units out of the battle giving your opponent advantage.

As for the stacking, I would not need to set them up in a "triple decker" to achieve the result. I leave it to you to see the how to do this.

[Poor Yorek]

I leave it to you to see the how to do this

Yes, of course a leader with a +1 or +2 combat bonus could achieve this, but your initial statement made no mention of this.

But I see no further purpose in pursuing this topic.

[J6A]

Also, don't forget that the I G prevents movement towards it without a leader, which can help slow up an advance.

[campsawyer]

I leave it to you to see the how to do this

Yes, of course a leader with a +1 or +2 combat bonus could achieve this, but your initial statement made no mention of this.

But I see no further purpose in pursuing this topic.

But I also made no statement on stacking either, just combined. Bottom line is I can't give away all trade secrets.

The bigger point is be creative with the units.

[campsawyer]

Also, don't forget that the I G prevents movement towards it without a leader, which can help slow up an advance.

There we go, creativity.

[vince hughes]

But I see no further purpose in pursuing this topic.

PY,

This is a forum. Its a discussion not an argument and should be taken as such. NO topic of interesting debate should be blithely tossed away as "No further point in talking"

As a full-time axis player in ftf games, I can suggest that the IG gun be used from distance and if 'combined' is done so with a leader using his fire group mod. of '1' or '2'.

There are players I have played against who will testify that this weapon is more than useful. For a starter. DEM units up to 11, yes 11 hexes away will have to flee. Thats some distance. Even when 11 hexes away, imagine a unit fleeing and you opp fire with this baby. With the opp fire bonus, it still fires on the 4 column. Even if a M MC is obtained, that puts the DEM unit under pressure for a compound DEM loss.

Its also worth remembering to dig these guys in in such situations just to at least give them some protection. I tend to put a leader adjacent to them so they do not get caught up in any fire and yet can still assist with morale.

Also, as road blocks they can be a pain. With a leader, dug-in, they will 'hit' from the 5 column in assault when blocking locations, and can therefore punch a M2 MC on the opposition before they even get a chance to reply. Useful ?

However. In games where a unit loss gives the opposition a VP, then I agree that their use has to be assesed. Is their loss worth the 1 VP ?

Anyway, all in all, I think their main use is from distance, especially if there are two of them !

[tanzerleader]

I wouldnt have thought that the usefulness of the 75mm IG was even up for debate, i think they are very handy.

oh well, different strokes for different folks