Transporting leaders

[plloyd1010]

The last sentence of rule 6.3 says, " A leader may move with any unit he activates, and can ride on a non-transport unit that has a higher movement allowance than he does (such as a motorcycle unit)."

Would that mean that a leader stacked with an armored car or tank (with tank leader) could active with the AC or tank and move with them.
The clause separation in the sentence suggests they can, the wording leaves it open that they cannot.

Based on the clause separation and rule 6.84, I think they can. This would then bring up another question, are they riding in the vehicle?
Historically forward observers assigned to armored and recon units rode in the vehicle. Does that then create an load/unload issue?

[NBGB]

I have them ride in armored cars as FO. Seems ridiculous that a scout unit cannot call in artillery and that is a way to get around that rule. You have to burn a leader though. The other benefit is they can move a group together when activating. My two cents.

The last sentence of rule 6.3 says, " A leader may move with any unit he activates, and can ride on a non-transport unit that has a higher movement allowance than he does (such as a motorcycle unit)."

Would that mean that a leader stacked with an armored car or tank (with tank leader) could active with the AC or tank and move with them.
The clause separation in the sentence suggests they can, the wording leaves it open that they cannot.

Based on the clause separation and rule 6.84, I think they can. This would then bring up another question, are they riding in the vehicle?
Historically forward observers assigned to armored and recon units rode in the vehicle. Does that then create an load/unload issue?

[cjsiam]

This seems to make sense in many ways....

Looking at the "mechanics"...
a) how do you load and unload?
b) how do you take casualties--if the AC is fired at with AT? 

a) the closest thing we have (at this point) is the Tank Riders rules....in that it takes a full turn for the Inf/Leader and the Tank to load
the vehicle.... to unload takes 1/2 the movement of each of the units (Unit/Leader and Vehicle....)

Some details of this-- So if an AFV/Tank/AC is moving with a leader loaded it can:
1) move up to 1/2 and then unload the leader --- leader has 2mp remaining....(of 4)
2) Leader and unload initially--AC can move off up to 1/2 MP....and then the Leader can more 2....
3) AC can move say 1/4 of it's MP....Unload (leader stops there momentarily) consuming 1/2MPs...the AC continues on another 1/4MPs...
   Then the Leader can move 2 mp.....

In all cases the UNLOADING of the MP is done---and then the AC completes move, and then the Leader completes...
UNLOADING can trigger DF OppFire at Leader....Movement of AC can trigger AT Opp fire at both units While transporting---OR After Unloaded just the AC...

QUESTION--- If an AC (or Tank) has to spend 1/2MPs to unload---Can the unactive Player get a shot AT the unit while it is UNLOADING--which is
an AT shot...so Active player moves into hex....asks Do you want to opp fire on movement?--unactive says no...
the Active player then says "I'm spending 1/2 my MP unloading"---unactive player then says "OK, I'll fire as you unload"....is he firing AT (getting both units? if
he hits?) or DF at leader (or inf) unloading?
This is different then Transports unloading with 1MP, (but maybe not 2MP for Weapons??)...more time to shoot (1/2 MPs) and units are coming out of or down from
the tanks in close proximity....??

If AT fire is applied as OPP fire while AC is moving Leader---Results should be applied to AC and Unit....
IF DF fire is Applied .... Does it impact transported leaders?....in Tank Riders, dealing with Platoon of men...they are clearly riding tanks outside--vulnerable...
For Leaders (3-6guys??Radio?) Are they vulnerable to DF fire.....I'm kinda thinking they would not be....

I think there is a lot going for this interpretation.....but we need to clear up how mechanic treats some cases....
-------------------------------
For those who Double Blind......
This brought up an interesting case----imagine the case of AC with Leader approaching a treeline....there is an enemy OP on the Treeline....
You have no units which can spot (12hexes) that OP or Treeline....
cases:
A) AC rides up and gets within AT Range.....AT fires and kills the unit, or demoralizes it---as No other OP was able to spot the treeline--the AT GUN
is not revealed...!!!....
B) AC drops Leader off outside of range, or before the AT gun chooses to fire anyway....
i) Leader is dropped, leader is >3hexes from limiting terrain, AC approaches---Gun Takes OUT (2x or Demoralized)... THE GUN is not revealed because there is no
  OP on the Leader (he does not need one as the AC was visible and could see him)....So there is now a Gun known to be in area--but the Active player does not know 
  where....
ii) Leader is dropped---OP IS PLACED ON HIM---and the above happens....at that point the Gun is Revealed as the OP on the Leader can spot the firing gun...

IF there were other Active Player OP which could observe the treeline/limiting terrain they would have seen the shot as well---but this is how the MECHANIC should
work---I think...
Comments solicited....(YES/YES-but/NO-because.....)

[treadasaurusrex]

The last sentence of rule 6.3 says, " A leader may move with any unit he activates, and can ride on a non-transport unit that has a higher movement allowance than he does (such as a motorcycle unit)."

Would that mean that a leader stacked with an armored car or tank (with tank leader) could active with the AC or tank and move with them.
The clause separation in the sentence suggests they can, the wording leaves it open that they cannot.

Based on the clause separation and rule 6.84, I think they can. This would then bring up another question, are they riding in the vehicle?
Historically forward observers assigned to armored and recon units rode in the vehicle. Does that then create a load/unload issue?

Unless I deliberately dismount a cavalry, motorcycle or other recon leader, I always consider the leader mounted.

If the leader is in a halftrack, AC or Jeep he dismounts like any personnel unit at a cost of 1 MP to both the transporting vehicle and the leader. The transporting unit can still move with its remaining MPs. The leader must stay in the hex he dismounted in.

[Grognard Gunny]

Concur with T-Rex.

GG

[cjsiam]

Have some issues...from the Definitions 1.2:
Reconnaissance (Recce): Includes two types: combat AFVs (includes armored cars) that are more lightly armored than tanks, generally faster, and used in a reconnaissance and screening role; and Intelligence and Reconnaissance (I&R or RCN) units that act in most cases like other foot. The AFVs may not transport other units, and use motorized or mechanized movement rates depending on type. Both types stack as other combat units. Both types have special spotting abilities (8.23).

So right there---it says it that they may not transport other units.....
Now---we could make the case that a Leader is not an "other units".....

What we clearly have is a Recce AC is NOT a transport....they do not have places to load troops quickly, and in quantity.....
like Tanks, if you're riding, your probably on the outside....which means that IF we consider Leaders as "not other units" so they can even BE loaded and transported, they are NOT loaded/unloaded as Transports are--but closer to tank riders...(that's my assertion based on read/and mechanic)....

So if we are going to allow Leaders to be transported by AC---a leader must not be considered an "other unit"--so not a unit (certainly not combat unit, this
we have established---but here fully putting leaders into "a piece NOT considered a unit in this sense as well"....so they can be transported--but, because NOT
a Transport the "and how do we do it?"---It looks like "as Tank Riders" is only choice offered up....

There is no "jump on or off Armored vehicle at 1MP" option offered....only on/off Transports...

SAME COMMENT--DIFFERENT SUBJECT...Regarding the 2nd part of TRex comment---This is what is in the rules 5.61
5.61 Transporting PersonnelA personnel unit (except cavalry and motorcycles) may load onto or unload from a transport unit at a cost of one MP to BOTH units each time the unit loads or unloads. Personnel units may load, be transported, and unload in the same movement phase, but may not enter another hex after being unloaded. A transport that unloads personnel may keep moving if it has MPs remaining after unloading.

The above covers the case of a unit loading/moving/unloading....
But, what if it is already loaded?.....it still costs 1 to unload (so say move 3MP for HT..Unload 4thMP for HT, 1MP for inf.....Halftrack can move 4more MP....
can the Infantry move? it would have two MP left....??(HMG would have 1).....

I don't see that Moving/Unloading is the same as Loading/Moving/Unloading.....for transports
Thoughts?

[leonard]

The idea of transporting leaders in vehicles was developped for PG Modern where leaders may activate/command any unit type. Unfortunately the PG Modern rules were not very explicit on the subject.
New modern rules specify that a leader may enter or leave a vehicle at 1 MP cost (for both the vehicle and leader). From inside a vehicle a leader may act normally (commanding, activating, artillery spotting, etc). If a vehicle transporting a leader loses a step, roll for leader survival normally. If a vehicle is completely destroyed, so is any leader inside.

[cjsiam]

The idea of transporting leaders in vehicles was developped for PG Modern where leaders may activate/command any unit type. Unfortunately the PG Modern rules were not very explicit on the subject.
New modern rules specify that a leader may enter or leave a vehicle at 1 MP cost (for both the vehicle and leader). From inside a vehicle a leader may act normally (commanding, activating, artillery spotting, etc). If a vehicle transporting a leader loses a step, roll for leader survival normally. If a vehicle is completely destroyed, so is any leader inside.

Thanks for the reply----so this would be an "update to the 4th edition game mechanic".....
Which (I think) looks like is needed.... you call out a few things--
A) leaders may activate/command any type unit----I think this is a modern training thing---and for PG in WWII...not something we'd want....
B) Leaders may enter/leave a vehicle at 1MP.... Given we are talking about a platoon 3-6 vehicles...we could make the simplification that they
  could find space for 1 leader counter in an AC....and loading/unloading cost 1 for both....
C) Can the leader move after unloading?...
we have case in rules for Infantry that clarifies Loading/Transport moving/Unloading -- the unit cannot move further...
Loaded Infantry--- Transport Moves...say truck moves 3 hexes (6mp) spends a MP unloading an Infantry---Infantry has spend 1 unloading--Can he move 2?
  it is not explicitly covered in the rules--only the LOAD->Move->Unload.....if you're already loaded it's Move->Unload->Inf Move?
In this case, can the leader Skeedaddle into a woods hex after being dropped?
D) If an AC takes a hit from AT (DF is ineffective unless can cause an X->MC) and loses a step....Leader takes a Leader Loss Check, and unloads?
Is the Leader required to unload---or if the AC passes M2, and leader passes Leader loss...he stays loaded and AC keeps moving?

Insight on the above would address any hanging issues on doing this...I think this is probably needed.
Thoughts? objections? Agreements?

[leonard]

Reply to Cjsiam:
A :yes, limited to PG modern but it makes play easier. It also allows firegroups of adjacent AFVs.
B : indeed
C : no, the leader may not move farther after unloading.
D : the leader shares the state of the vehicle and must unload if disrupted/demoralized as usual.

[plloyd1010]

The consensus, based on the likes and a couple side conversations, seems to be that leaders should be able to ride in or on  any vehicle in the game. Okay, but the mechanics need some definition. I have a proposal, but first some considerations.

Contrary to the The Big Red One Tank Birth Scene, there isn't much room in WWII combat vehicles. In fact there is less than in most vehicles in PG Modern. As a general (read anti-ASL) position assume a spot can always be found for 1 more person. Yes, I know about the L3 and FT17, but I don't want to argue over a yes-no list.

Also unlike modern operations, inter service, branch, and even regimental cooperation has a much higher friction level. (The M1 combat car is called a "car" because cavalry at the time could have "tanks".) Again, opting for a generic rule rather than this army at this time would and another wouldn't.

Treating leaders as tank riders doesn't really work. The big difference is that a leader is 1-4 guys, depending on the number of accompanying runners and attendants. An infantry platoon is 30-50 guys. Thus, finding room for one person is far different than 6-10 onto a vehicle that was never designed to carry anybody.

Here is what I have in mind:
Except as noted or clarified, rules 5.61,  6.3, and 6.84 remain in effect.

1. A regular leader may ride any non-transport vehicle, provided both activate together. This would normally require both be in the same hex at the time of activation. The vehicle is subject to the limitations of its action (such as no combat movement or assault for a tank not activated by a tank leader.)
   
2. Leaders may ride inside or on the outside the non-transport vehicle. If riding inside the vehicle, place the leader under the vehicle to indicate this. Leaders not placed under the vehicle counter are assumed to be riding on the outside of the vehicle and are dismounted at the end of the vehicle's movement.
   
3. Vehicles pay 1MP when loading a Leader. One leader may ride inside a vehicle, 3 leaders may ride on the outside
   
4. Leaders riding on the outside of a non-transport vehicle function normally. They are subject to opportunity fire as per rule 17.20 as other tank riders would be.
   
5. Leaders riding inside of a non-transport vehicle may only activate units in their hex. They may not use their morale or combat modifiers (too tight and limited access from inside the vehicle). They may still spot for bombardment fire.
   
6. Leaders riding a non-transport vehicle are subject to vehicle disruption, demoralization and forced unloading, just as any other transported unit. Additionally, leaders riding a non-transport vehicle are subject to a leader loss check should the carrying unit suffer a step loss. If only one step loss, a leader is eliminated on a 2d6 roll of 9 or more.
   
7. Leaders may debark a non-transport vehicle at a cost of 1MP to the vehicle at any point during the vehicle's movement. The leader may not move further that turn, though the vehicle may. Remember that leaders riding outside the vehicle are automatically dismounted at the end of the vehicle's movement.
   

How does that work?