Here's a "Hmmmmm!" thought for you.

[plloyd1010]

I see a certain blurring of concepts emerging. Specifically that movement points per hex = speed, as Richard stated in the preceding post. ( am reasonably sure Bob is not falling into that trap.)  Fundamental point is speed = hexes per turn. Thus, movement points per hex ≠ hexes per turn. Now for some working perspective on game speed.

Using Panzerblitz & Panzer Leaders as a reference counter point, I'll raise speed considerations. PB/PL have infantry moving at 1 hex per turn, thus about 2.5kM/hr, or a little over 1.5 miles per hour. Panzer Grenadier infantry moves at 3 per turn, equating to 2.4kM/hr, or exactly 1.5 miles per hour. So the infantry makes a good reference point.

PB/PL used "published" cross-country speeds as the basis for their vehicular movement points. Our all favorite Panther, with a published speed of 25.5kM/hr (who knows the source), got 10 movement points or 25kM/hr in the game. In PG, the Panther gets 8 movement points, giving the 4th Ed speed of 4kM/hr (2.5 MPH). With a house rule 1MP/hex, the speed goes to 6.4kM/hr (4 MPH). On the other hand, the realistic speed of 25kM/hr, equates to 31 hexes per turn might be a little much.

Okay, that's the math. Now, what is reasonable in the game?

[Grognard Gunny]

Speed is one thing, combat caution is quite another.

GG

[plloyd1010]

Speed is one thing, combat caution is quite another.

GG

I believe the words being bandied were realistic and unrealistic. Combat caution is squishy, addressed by strategic movement and regulated by opportunity fire.

[Grognard Gunny]

On the other hand, that's just me.... rather safe than sorry. I didn't make it through a year and a half in 'Nam by running about hard charging and all. (At least when it wasn't required.)

GG

[Schoenwulf]

With the caveat that I have never driven, or even been in, a tank, Gunny's point is well taken. My presumption is, that like our street vehicles, they can't run at top speed for very long if we want to minimize repairs. I cited the day/night speeds that German protocols (from whatever I could find) believed their AFV units could make at 12.5/7.5 mph, which seems reasonable. My guess is that this approach provided good gas mileage, minimal repair and maintenance time, proper scouting and tactical concerns as Gunny noted.
Peter illustrated the difficulty with trying to scale the speed for PG. It's safe to say that AFV's should have a little better pace, but my concern goes back to what the designers used when they developed their mods and scenarios. Assuming sufficient play-testing and attempts to provide some balance while maintaining at least a fragment of historical context, the majority of scenarios probably should play as written. However, it's only a game, and it's your game, so play it as you like. After all, we do this for enjoyment and, yes, some of us enjoy historical research as well, but the intersection of history and game mechanics won't always mesh well.

[plloyd1010]

On the other hand, that's just me.... rather safe than sorry. I didn't make it through a year and a half in 'Nam by running about hard charging and all. (At least when it wasn't required.)

GG

Don, I'm not trying to create an experience debate, I know I would lose. When you were in theater, I was in jr high school. I am only pointing out that we are involved in a game system which most of us would like reasonable outcomes, through a reasonable set of mechanics, which are measured by the collective related experiences of those involved and documented historical outcomes. I, quite obviously, approach this from the egghead side of things.

In the mechanics, we need to consider how the component operatives relate to each other and what functions we are assuming to be managed below the level of game play. How fast should vehicle types move in relation to each other and to infantry?

[Grognard Gunny]

Well enough. That was the goal when the scenarios were written. It seemed, to me, at least, that was the way they were designed. What I said, way back at the beginning of all this, is perhaps the design has been upset by changing the mechanics. .... and that brings us the full circle, I believe.

GG

[Grognard Gunny]

The overall point I was trying to make was while the coldly calculating guys in the rear make their plans and calculations it is really up to the guys at the sharp end of the stick that decide just how "fast" things go.

GG

[treadasaurusrex]

We all appreciate your insights & efforts, Don!