Double LOS question

[plloyd1010]

On a woody hill in Luxembourg, Some Germans are shooting at some Americans.
   

As my valiant ancestors shiver in the trees, who can see them the U.S. INF? Looking at rule 8.42, I think the GREN can see them, but I think hex 1104 blocks the LOS between the German HMG and the U.S. INF. 

Opinions on the 3 possibilities?

[leonard]

These are Light Woods, right ?
If yes, the Gren may fire at the US inf. The LOS is going thru one Light Woods (1103) and into another (1102). idem for the HMG but the US inf must be spotted. In both cases, LOS from the Germans is going over the Light Woods in 1104.
If the woods are « real » woods, no LOS to the US

[plloyd1010]

These are Light Woods, right ?

Yes.

If yes, the Gren may fire at the US inf. The LOS is going thru one Light Woods (1103) and into another (1102). idem for the HMG but the US inf must be spotted. In both cases, LOS from the Germans is going over the Light Woods in 1104.

I had forgotten about the being spotted requirement for the HMG, so they could not fire anyway.

[Kowalski]

Hi Phillipe, I am confused now. I was under the impression that neither of them are able to target the U S unit because they are in the 3rd light wood hex. Why is 1104 not in Los of the grenadiers? Am I missing something?

Peter

[plloyd1010]

As I see it, ignoring my spotted error: 

1. The GREN in 1105 can see the INF in 1102 because 1104 is closer to to the GREN than the INF. Thus the only intervening lt woods hex is 1103. The rule says that intervening limited terrain hexes closer (not equidistant) to the higher hex to not block LOS.
   
2. The HMG in 1106 would not be able to see the the INF because 1104 is equidistant between it and the U.S. INF. Thus the LOS would go through 2 lt woods hexes, which blocks the LOS.
   

In the actual game, the American units in the hex have not fired, thus are not spotted anyway. So the HMG would not be able to fire on the INF.

[Grognard Gunny]

...and that was the reading I took from the situation.

GG

[plloyd1010]

I was hopping for more expression in the poll, which I think closes today.

[leonard]

8.42 In case there is an obstacle of the same elevation as the higher unit between firer and target, LOS is blocked if the obstacle is closer (NOT EQUIDISTANT) to the lower unit than the higher one.

In this case, even if hex 1104 were "real" woods, LOS from the HMG would go over and hit the US in 1102. Because equidistance.
Since 1104 is Light Woods, it is the same and the LOS does not go thru the Light Woods in 1104. Fire from the HMG goes thru Light Woods in 1103 and into Light Woods in 1102.

[filbox]

Gentlemen, I’ve just answered the poll and ticked the option where the GREN has line of sight but the HMG doesn’t. Of course, this is WRONG. Philippe Leonard explains it perfectly. The LOS is not blocked because the HMG is at the same distance from 1104 as the US infantry (there IS line of sight if the obstacle is equidistant from the lower unit and the higher one).

In summary:

* GREN has LOS to 1102 and can fire at US infantry
* HMG has LOS to 1102 and can fire at US infantry if spotted

Unfortunately, I can no longer correct my wrong poll choice. My apologies !

[Kowalski]

Ok, I stand corrected. Filbox has explained it to me yesterday evening. It certainly is not something intuitive but I'll try to live by the rules and if in doubt just listen to my gaming buddy.