Hello all,
I am a longtime lurker here, and after having played the demo a couple times I have decided to invest in an actual boxed game. I've combed through all the previous threads for information, but I have a couple of questions regarding specific games. My interest lies primarily with the late war Eastern Front, and so Road to Berlin looks quite appealing to me, but are there enough smaller scale scenarios that it could be my first game? From what I've read, there are lots of bigger scenarios in that one. Also, how do Broken Axis and Liberation 1944 look in terms of smaller scenarios? Those also interest me. Any general comments regarding the worthiness of those three games as starters would be appreciated, as well as any other things I should consider as I dive into the system.
There are 4 Eastern Front games in print:
- Broken Axis offers 4 scenarios with less than 60 pieces but its focus is on scenarios with 70 to 120 pieces. The boards include far more terrain than blocks line of sigh than in the other 3 games listed below.
- Fire in the Steppe also offers 4 scenarios with less than 60 pieces and it includes many scenarios with less than 120 pieces. Most boards include very little LOS blocking terrain.
- Kursk: Burning Tigers only includes 2 scenarios with less than 60 pieces and its focus is on scenarios that include 120 to 200 pieces. The boards include very little LOS blocking terrain.
- Kursk: South Flank includes 9 scenarios with less than 60 pieces but also more scenarios with more than 200+ pieces than the three above mentioned games combined. The boards include very little LOS blocking terrain.
I recommend Kursk: South Flank as a first game because it includes more small scenarios than the other games and LOS should not cause you issues. Play the small scenarios first and then try scenarios of various sizes to see if you have a preference before you decide on a second game.
I think the other three games are reasonable choices for a first game, especially if your interest is very specific.
Road to Berlin is no longer in print and does not come with 4th edition rules. It includes 13 scenario with less than 60 pieces but the scenarios tend to have more turns than in newer games (there has been a focus to cut scenario lengths in the past 5 years). I am hesitant to recommend it as a first purchase.
Rockin 'B Games carry some PG games and free shipping if you spend $48.47. And you will if you purchase one of the games I recommended.
https://shop.rockinbgames.com/#!/~/search/keyword=APL-0333&offset=0&sort=relevance
Don't forget to post in the Rules forums if you have questions!
Since you didn't define "small scenario", I went with the notion of a reinforced battalion task force for each side. Figure about 15-20 counters for an infantry battalion, add leaders, a little heavy support, couple AFVs, makes 30ish a side, say 60 for the counter limit. I got:
- Road to Berlin 13 scenarios
- Liberation 1944 12 scenarios
- Elsenborn Ridge 12 scenarios
- Broken Axis 5 scenarios
Of the bunch, Road to Berlin probably has the worst over all balance. If you are more of an experimental player, that won't matter much. Another consideration, Elsenborn Ridge has be the unofficial intro game almost since it came out. Elsenborn Ridge is also the base for the most expansion, of those 4. Hope this helps.
I should have read the original post more carefully; I read Eastern Front and got stuck on it!
Thank you guys for the breakdown, that's exactly what I was looking for in terms of "number of small scenarios".
Now I know that Elsenborn Ridge is highly regarded as a starter, but the subject just doesn't interest me as much as say Kursk, Broken Axis or Liberation. So unless I find it pretty cheap, I've all but ruled it out, and as for Broken Axis, its a shame there aren't many smaller scenarios and that it has tougher terrain. In light of those two concerns, I'd probably have to rule that one out too. I'm still not totally ruling out Road to Berlin though, because I am a solo player, so balance isn't huge, it's the most interesting to me, and I have a copy of the 4th Edition rules from the demo. So if I find a cheap copy I may spring for it, but perhaps as a second game. This leaves Liberation and the Kursk: South Flank. Kursk is more expensive, so can anyone speak to the difficulty of the terrain in Liberation? If there's lots of LOS intricacies, I may wait until further down the line to get it.
Liberation has more blocking terrain than the Kursk games but nothing that should cause serious problems. Liberation includes hidden units and while there are rules that specify how to handle hidden units when playing solitaire, it does add a little bit to the complexity.
The Kursk games and Liberation are all excellent designs by Mike Perryman.
Kursk: South Flank is listed at $80.99 from the vendor I listed above but you will get a 11% discount at checkout and free shipping. Liberation (also Broken Axis) is listed at $71.99 but you will get a 7.5% discount at checkout and free shipping. It might be slightly cheaper (even when adding shipping) to buy direct from Avalanche Press if you're a Gold Club member and take advantage of the sale that ends tomorrow.
(10-12-2018, 12:19 PM)Hugmenot Wrote: [ -> ]Liberation has more blocking terrain than the Kursk games but nothing that should cause serious problems. Liberation includes hidden units and while there are rules that specify how to handle hidden units when playing solitaire, it does add a little bit to the complexity.
The Kursk games and Liberation are all excellent designs by Mike Perryman.
Kursk: South Flank is listed at $80.99 from the vendor I listed above but you will get a 11% discount at checkout and free shipping. Liberation (also Broken Axis) is listed at $71.99 but you will get a 7.5% discount at checkout and free shipping. It might be slightly cheaper (even when adding shipping) to buy direct from Avalanche Press if you're a Gold Club member and take advantage of the sale that ends tomorrow.
I am not a Gold Club member, but that site you linked has some good deals with the free shipping and discount. Having rules to handle hidden units solitaire seems like quite a neat feature, and if Liberation terrain doesn't cause serious problems, I'll likely go for it because it interests me a bit more at the moment. Thank you for your insights. It's really nice to get series veterans' opinions as a noob.
(10-12-2018, 10:20 AM)DasReich Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you guys for the breakdown, that's exactly what I was looking for in terms of "number of small scenarios".
Now I know that Elsenborn Ridge is highly regarded as a starter, but the subject just doesn't interest me as much as say Kursk, Broken Axis or Liberation. So unless I find it pretty cheap, I've all but ruled it out, and as for Broken Axis, its a shame there aren't many smaller scenarios and that it has tougher terrain. In light of those two concerns, I'd probably have to rule that one out too. I'm still not totally ruling out Road to Berlin though, because I am a solo player, so balance isn't huge, it's the most interesting to me, and I have a copy of the 4th Edition rules from the demo. So if I find a cheap copy I may spring for it, but perhaps as a second game. This leaves Liberation and the Kursk: South Flank. Kursk is more expensive, so can anyone speak to the difficulty of the terrain in Liberation? If there's lots of LOS intricacies, I may wait until further down the line to get it.
We've got a PX forum here as well where you might find some good deals on second hand copies from our members. It might be worth your while to take a look. Prices are generally on the lower side, and many of us have already trimmed the corners off of the counters.
I've got several second copies of titles that I haven't gotten around to offering yet, including Road to Berlin, and I'm sure others have copies that won't take much in the way of persuading to get them to sell.
(10-15-2018, 06:41 AM)Coniglius Wrote: [ -> ] (10-12-2018, 10:20 AM)DasReich Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you guys for the breakdown, that's exactly what I was looking for in terms of "number of small scenarios".
Now I know that Elsenborn Ridge is highly regarded as a starter, but the subject just doesn't interest me as much as say Kursk, Broken Axis or Liberation. So unless I find it pretty cheap, I've all but ruled it out, and as for Broken Axis, its a shame there aren't many smaller scenarios and that it has tougher terrain. In light of those two concerns, I'd probably have to rule that one out too. I'm still not totally ruling out Road to Berlin though, because I am a solo player, so balance isn't huge, it's the most interesting to me, and I have a copy of the 4th Edition rules from the demo. So if I find a cheap copy I may spring for it, but perhaps as a second game. This leaves Liberation and the Kursk: South Flank. Kursk is more expensive, so can anyone speak to the difficulty of the terrain in Liberation? If there's lots of LOS intricacie s, I may wait until further down the line to get it.
We've got a PX forum here as well where you might find some good deals on second hand copies from our members. It might be worth your while to take a look. Prices are generally on the lower side, and many of us have already trimmed the corners off of the counters.
I've got several second copies of titles that I haven't gotten around to offering yet, including Road to Berlin, and I'm sure others have copies that won't take much in the way of persuading to get them to sell.
Maybe a bit late to this discussion, but with a name like DasReich, I'm assuming you might be interested in 2nd SS history. Kursk:South Flank is 100% 2nd SS scenarios. It deals with the attack at Kursk of the 2nd SS Corps; one plays with all those wonderful SS Divisions: Reich, Death's Head and Lifeguard. They all have good morale, too. 8/7.
(10-22-2018, 05:19 AM)saracv3 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-15-2018, 06:41 AM)Coniglius Wrote: [ -> ] (10-12-2018, 10:20 AM)DasReich Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you guys for the breakdown, that's exactly what I was looking for in terms of "number of small scenarios".
Now I know that Elsenborn Ridge is highly regarded as a starter, but the subject just doesn't interest me as much as say Kursk, Broken Axis or Liberation. So unless I find it pretty cheap, I've all but ruled it out, and as for Broken Axis, its a shame there aren't many smaller scenarios and that it has tougher terrain. In light of those two concerns, I'd probably have to rule that one out too. I'm still not totally ruling out Road to Berlin though, because I am a solo player, so balance isn't huge, it's the most interesting to me, and I have a copy of the 4th Edition rules from the demo. So if I find a cheap copy I may spring for it, but perhaps as a second game. This leaves Liberation and the Kursk: South Flank. Kursk is more expensive, so can anyone speak to the difficulty of the terrain in Liberation? If there's lots of LOS intricacie s, I may wait until further down the line to get it.
We've got a PX forum here as well where you might find some good deals on second hand copies from our members. It might be worth your while to take a look. Prices are generally on the lower side, and many of us have already trimmed the corners off of the counters.
I've got several second copies of titles that I haven't gotten around to offering yet, including Road to Berlin, and I'm sure others have copies that won't take much in the way of persuading to get them to sell.
Maybe a bit late to this discussion, but with a name like DasReich, I'm assuming you might be interested in 2nd SS history. Kursk:South Flank is 100% 2nd SS scenarios. It deals with the attack at Kursk of the 2nd SS Corps; one plays with all those wonderful SS Divisions: Reich, Death's Head and Lifeguard. They all have good morale, too. 8/7.
I am indeed quite interested in the combat histories of the SS Panzer divisions (lots of big battles and controversy surrounding them), so while I didn't go with that one as my first, if I like the system, I'll definitely be acquiring it at some point. Thank you for the input.