Rules question: Mire

[armyduck95]

This is actually a modern PzG question, but believe PzG has the same Mire rules.
1. can a unit that is mired still fire? Looking at the rules it seems like "Yes", just not move. I ask since they are marked with a "move/Fire" marker and wondered if that precluded activation.

2. Do you start removing the move/fired markers in the admin phase of the same turn the unit became mired? or in the next turn? (looks like same turn)

3. Does a road running through a marsh get the same TEC effect for being marsh or moving into the road hex OR is the road hex considered "clear" ?

[vince hughes]

This is actually a modern PzG question, but believe PzG has the same Mire rules.
1. can a unit that is mired still fire? Looking at the rules it seems like "Yes", just not move. I ask since they are marked with a "move/Fire" marker and wondered if that precluded activation.

2. Do you start removing the move/fired markers in the admin phase of the same turn the unit became mired? or in the next turn? (looks like same turn)

3. Does a road running through a marsh get the same TEC effect for being marsh or moving into the road hex OR is the road hex considered "clear" ?

I am only going by the PG 4th ed proposal rules, so John would probably be the best to answer. However, from what I have in those rules ( a pre-print model ) here is what I would suggest.

1. Unfortunately, against your suggestion, I'd say no it can not fire. This is because it already has M/F markers on it and the 3 turns it has to spend 'un-miring is the crew out of the vehicle, or part of the crew clearing the problem. Its turn is spent un-miring and that is how 1 x M/F marker comes off per turn.

2. On this one I'd say yes, it comes off in the first marker removal phase. It would have got mired during its activation by moving and getting mired. The marker removal phase comes after all the activations meaning the MOVED/FIRED markers and SMOKE markers are removed. Therefore, I'd suggest so does 1 x M/F marker from the mired vehicle's 3 M/F markers it has on it.

3. Roads - This one is easy and I can answer this one regardles of 3rd/4th ed. For movement. If the road is entered via a road hex, then its movement factor is per road cost. The hex itself is still a marsh hex, so for spotting etc, you use Marsh rules. Roads never determine whether a hex is clear or not, they only change movement through them if entered from another road. For example, a road through a woods hex is still a woods hex and not a clear hex. However, an exception is town. Towns are town hexes regardless of art or road depiction (roads are rarely continuously straight through urban areas).

Another reason is that road art is different through each map set. In EFD/RtB roads through towns are everywhere in all directions, meaning town movement would never be used. In other sets, such as ER, the road is depicted as just going straight through but the rest of 'town' is depicted in building form. Therefore, when moving in town its always 1 MP.

[zaarin7]

Also as anyone who has seen a European town can tell you there are militarily usable roads in each town hex below the scale of PG. I would also agree with Vince on his answers.

[armyduck95]

Vince I actually agree with your interpretation too, and would prefer to play with the units effectively incapacitated that it cannot move or fire, but the crew is busy in recovery. and they may not have been able. But I was going with what is written in the rules which just say "move"...and of course that begs a follow-on .. can they attempt recovery if disrupted/demoralized while marked with move/fire and prohibited from moving or firing due to miring? See the slippery slope? And then here are some additional add-ons not in the mire rules that should be considered:

1. A demoralized mired unit forced to flee is eliminated (much like a movement "0" ordnance)
2. I almost think it better to treat mired units as:
a. Automatically disrupted (firing halved) which accounts for vehicles not in ideal firing positions and crews attempting to dislodge them, but also considers that not all vehicles in a platoon will likely be mired, or the ability of turrets and most vehicles having 360 degree capabilities; and more easily demoralized when coming under fire.
b. Treat them more like digging in rules - they are effectively "digging out" of being mired. - I guess with that approach they cannot move or fire either.

[vince hughes]

Vince I actually agree with your interpretation too, and would prefer to play with the units effectively incapacitated that it cannot move or fire, but the crew is busy in recovery. and they may not have been able. But I was going with what is written in the rules which just say "move"...and of course that begs a follow-on .. can they attempt recovery if disrupted/demoralized while marked with move/fire and prohibited from moving or firing due to miring? See the slippery slope? And then here are some additional add-ons not in the mire rules that should be considered:

1. A demoralized mired unit forced to flee is eliminated (much like a movement "0" ordnance)
2. I almost think it better to treat mired units as:
a. Automatically disrupted (firing halved) which accounts for vehicles not in ideal firing positions and crews attempting to dislodge them, but also considers that not all vehicles in a platoon will likely be mired, or the ability of turrets and most vehicles having 360 degree capabilities; and more easily demoralized when coming under fire.
b. Treat them more like digging in rules - they are effectively "digging out" of being mired. - I guess with that approach they cannot move or fire either.

AD,

The rules I have do not just say Moved. They say place 3 x moved/fire marker on the unit and remove one each marker removal phase.

If a unit has a M/F marker on it it can not activate further. Either 'Move (recover or move) or fire (fire or assault).

It is simply mired and thats your lot so to speak.

However ! That all said, I only have the proposed 4th ed rules from John.S. What the final draft says is another thing and as it is a JS rule, he would be the best to clarify. So I will email him and try to get him on this forum to answer properly. I didn't want the mire rule for some of the terrain it is introduced to and like other 'innovations' or other SSR's, I can not stand rules introduced that does not cover all eventualities such as the questions here raise. That is why I just treat it as already activated BUT what if it becomes DEM ? Must it try and recover ? Should it ignore and continue to remove a marker ? These all need clarifying before it goes into print.

.

[armyduck95]

Vince I actually agree with your interpretation too, and would prefer to play with the units effectively incapacitated that it cannot move or fire, but the crew is busy in recovery. and they may not have been able. But I was going with what is written in the rules which just say "move"...and of course that begs a follow-on .. can they attempt recovery if disrupted/demoralized while marked with move/fire and prohibited from moving or firing due to miring? See the slippery slope? And then here are some additional add-ons not in the mire rules that should be considered:

1. A demoralized mired unit forced to flee is eliminated (much like a movement "0" ordnance)
2. I almost think it better to treat mired units as:
a. Automatically disrupted (firing halved) which accounts for vehicles not in ideal firing positions and crews attempting to dislodge them, but also considers that not all vehicles in a platoon will likely be mired, or the ability of turrets and most vehicles having 360 degree capabilities; and more easily demoralized when coming under fire.
b. Treat them more like digging in rules - they are effectively "digging out" of being mired. - I guess with that approach they cannot move or fire either.

AD,

The rules I have do not just say Moved. They say place 3 x moved/fire marker on the unit and remove one each marker removal phase.

If a unit has a M/F marker on it it can not activate further. Either 'Move (recover or move) or fire (fire or assault).

It is simply mired and thats your lot so to speak.

However ! That all said, I only have the proposed 4th ed rules from John.S. What the final draft says is another thing and as it is a JS rule, he would be the best to clarify. So I will email him and try to get him on this forum to answer properly. I didn't want the mire rule for some of the terrain it is introduced to and like other 'innovations' or other SSR's, I can not stand rules introduced that does not cover all eventualities such as the questions here raise. That is why I just treat it as already activated BUT what if it becomes DEM ? Must it try and recover ? Should it ignore and continue to remove a marker ? These all need clarifying before it goes into print.

.

Vince,
Admittedly rule 16.6 Mire in the PzG Modern rule book is quite clear and I am probably drumming up non-issues. At least in PzG Modern rules I think it is actually quite clear. The Mire rule says a unit cannot move. Period. So playing the rule as written in PzG Modern tells me a unit can fire, recover, etc. do everything but move until "freed."
The rule for freeing a unit is to deduct the 3x Move/Fire Markers each turn and then roll to get out.

16.6: "Unless otherwise specified, on a result of 1 through 3 for wheeled vehicles, or 1 or 2 for naval units or tracked vehicles, the unit may no longer move for the remainder of the game unless subsequently “freed.” ...
...Place three Moved/Fired markers on the mired unit. In the marker removal phase remove one marker each turn until one remains. On the third marker removal phase roll one die, and on a result of 1 through 3 for wheeled vehicles, or 1 or 2 for naval or tracked vehicles they remain mired. Place another three Moved/Fired markers on the mired vehicle. Repeat as necessary."

In the end I think the rule here is clear except for the issue of fleeing as discussed. The issue of fleeing can go two ways - treat a mired unit like movement "0" ordnance and the unit is abandoned, or make it take an additional step loss in lieu of full elimination.

[vince hughes]

AD,

Yes, the rules as written is what I am getting at.

As well as the Mire rule, there is rule 3.13:

"Units marked with “MOVED/FIRED” markers may not activate again in the current turn except through Random Events (17.5)."

As the unit is already marked by MOVED / FIRED markers, I suspect it can not activate further, even to fire. But I say again, I will get JS to answer this direct in order to expunge any doubt either way.

[vince hughes]

Email sent to JS requesting his service on this one as it is a rule he introduced.

[Airlifter]

This is actually a modern PzG question, but believe PzG has the same Mire rules.
1. can a unit that is mired still fire? Looking at the rules it seems like "Yes", just not move. I ask since they are marked with a "move/Fire" marker and wondered if that precluded activation.

2. Do you start removing the move/fired markers in the admin phase of the same turn the unit became mired? or in the next turn? (looks like same turn)

3. Does a road running through a marsh get the same TEC effect for being marsh or moving into the road hex OR is the road hex considered "clear" ?

I am only going by the PG 4th ed proposal rules, so John would probably be the best to answer. However, from what I have in those rules ( a pre-print model ) here is what I would suggest.

1. Unfortunately, against your suggestion, I'd say no it can not fire. This is because it already has M/F markers on it and the 3 turns it has to spend 'un-miring is the crew out of the vehicle, or part of the crew clearing the problem. Its turn is spent un-miring and that is how 1 x M/F marker comes off per turn.

2. On this one I'd say yes, it comes off in the first marker removal phase. It would have got mired during its activation by moving and getting mired. The marker removal phase comes after all the activations meaning the MOVED/FIRED markers and SMOKE markers are removed. Therefore, I'd suggest so does 1 x M/F marker from the mired vehicle's 3 M/F markers it has on it.

3. Roads - This one is easy and I can answer this one regardles of 3rd/4th ed. For movement. If the road is entered via a road hex, then its movement factor is per road cost. The hex itself is still a marsh hex, so for spotting etc, you use Marsh rules. Roads never determine whether a hex is clear or not, they only change movement through them if entered from another road. For example, a road through a woods hex is still a woods hex and not a clear hex. However, an exception is town. Towns are town hexes regardless of art or road depiction (roads are rarely continuously straight through urban areas).

Another reason is that road art is different through each map set. In EFD/RtB roads through towns are everywhere in all directions, meaning town movement would never be used. In other sets, such as ER, the road is depicted as just going straight through but the rest of 'town' is depicted in building form. Therefore, when moving in town its always 1 MP.

Vince, you are correct on all counts. We have added Mire as an optional rule to the 4th Edition PG which I will post below. We also noted it was unclear in MG hence the update for 4th Ed. You will also see that we made the mired unit more vulnerable to AT and Assault. And we wanted to give the owner the chance to change his priorities for the mired unit roll for recovery or fire if needed, byt then NOT get credit for trying to free the vehicles.

Anyhow, thanks for asking. Hope you are enjoying the game.

18.5 Mire.
Some terrain is so boggy or rough that vehicles or naval units attempting to cross it may be hopelessly caught without outside help.

18.51. Procedure.
If a unit enters terrain designated in the TEC or scenario instructions as having a mire
problem, roll one die for the moving unit each time it enters such a hex. Unless
otherwise specified, on a result of 1 through 3 for wheeled vehicles, or 1 or 2 for naval
units or tracked vehicles, the unit may no longer move unless “freed” on a subsequent
turn. Add one to the result for an amphibious vehicle in rice paddy/salt marsh, swamp,
or water.
Place three MOVED/FIRED markers on the mired unit. In the marker removal phase
remove one marker each turn until one remains. On the third marker removal phase
make another mire roll as above. If the roll succeeds the unit may move normally next
turn. If the roll fails, place another three MOVED/FIRED markers on the mired vehicle.
Repeat as necessary.

18.52. Effects.
Mired units have their armor rating reduced by 1. Transports may unload while mired.
Weapon units that unload must roll for mire, and if mired themselves, may not unlimber or limber. Units assaulting mired units receive a +1 column shift.
A mired unit may roll for recovery or fire but may not remove a MOVED/FIRED marker
that turn if they do so.

18.53. Terrain Affected by Mire.
Barbed Wire, Mangrove, Major River for Naval, Rice Paddy/Salt Marsh, Rocky, Sand
Dune, Sandbar, Steep Slope, and Woods.

Cheers,
John Stafford
Panzer Grenadier & Modern Grenadier Designer/Developer

[vince hughes]

Well that's one of the fullest answers I've ever seen ! Thanks