Bombardment units in assault hexes

[plloyd1010]

Hmmm. I’m coming back with my previous proposition to give an inherent Direct Fire capability to Bombardment only units. The inherent direct firepower would be proportionated to the Bombardment firepower.

My problem with that idea is that units with higher bombardment factors are the least able yo participate in assault combat. If bombarding in their own hex were an option by activation, the first part would be surviving the assault with the nominal defensive CF of 1. That is before considering the caveats I noted earlier.

[waynebaumber]

Good points made, there is a discrepancy as the DF value is used by some guns in assault and makes them far more formidable  than they should be.  I would make have an separate assault value for guns, ranging from 1 - 3 depending on capabilities. For example I can see that a 20mm AA gun firing over open sights is far more effective than a 81mm MTR crew. However still less effective than a INF platoon in assault.  One for the next edition rules?

[cjsiam]

Hmmm. I’m coming back with my previous proposition to give an inherent Direct Fire capability to Bombardment only units. The inherent direct firepower would be proportionated to the Bombardment firepower.

I think this is the right direction....
I also think that the presence of some screening infantry would make significant difference to the
  ability of the weapon to operate effectively (certainly larger ones...).
Something like the rule of HMG only being 1/2 if attacking without supporting inf.

Rubbleing buildings could very well produce some Defensive benefits---but the next turn/activation---immediately it's a real problem for
those who are in them while Rubbleing ensues....

Could be a few mechanic tweeks here involving size of weapon impacting DF, even ability to DF,
presence of INF and rubbling being enhanced due to what the heck is going on when
HE is direct fire sighting into structures

[cjsiam]

Hmmm. I’m coming back with my previous proposition to give an inherent Direct Fire capability to Bombardment only units. The inherent direct firepower would be proportionated to the Bombardment firepower.

My problem with that idea is that units with higher bombardment factors are the least able yo participate in assault combat. If bombarding in their own hex were an option by activation, the first part would be surviving the assault with the nominal defensive CF of 1. That is before considering the caveats I noted earlier.

Peter---using this mechanic approach----IF the Guns got to activate BEFORE the enemy Assaulting Inf---that is the time they would apply what (if any) of a determined
DF Factor----Then, in a following activation the guns would defend at the CF of 1 if they were assaulted....

IF they survived the initial "Advance by Assault into hex" ... then in their activation, or in following turn activations, they would have option to use their DF in an attack?
or enhance the Assault CF if they choose to assault?...

Perhaps it's a column mod? Defending closed terrain (specifically Towns perhaps) with hvy artillery in a defensive position....maybe it's just a missing column modifier?

[goosebrown]

>>Could they have a fire order and fire as the AT guns can?<<

Unequivocally no. Bombardment units might fire open sights in the next hex, but not in the same hex. They just don't have the maneuverability or the elevation to fight in the same hex. 

[cjsiam]

>>Could they have a fire order and fire as the AT guns can?<<

Unequivocally no. Bombardment units might fire open sights in the next hex, but not in the same hex. They just don't have the maneuverability or the elevation to fight in the same hex. 

I'm not sure your right about all calibers with this statement...
I'm thinking of Inf Art, french 75s and others of that ilk...
When you get to >105---I'd bet you're correct....

so---I'm thinking some some equivocating in order here

[cjsiam]

>>Could they have a fire order and fire as the AT guns can?<<

Unequivocally no. Bombardment units might fire open sights in the next hex, but not in the same hex. They just don't have the maneuverability or the elevation to fight in the same hex. 

As well....to put it to the existing mechanic....most of these larger guns have AT capability....
and I don't think that was indirect fire ......and it certainly is possible at 1 hex---but the rules even allow AT fire within
the assault hex, at tanks in the assault hex...
So---if they can drop depression to fire at tanks in the AT hex...
I think they could do the same thing with HE shells....

The DF would be something other then the BF--- but I think we have comparisons with DF/BF ratios with other
units which had duel roles (russian 76.2mm for example)

So, I do hereby Equivocate and question your hypothesis....

[plloyd1010]

Unequivocally no. Bombardment units might fire open sights in the next hex, but not in the same hex. They just don't have the maneuverability or the elevation to fight in the same hex. 

Did who ever first said this consider that
and , and even
can take a shot at a vehicle while in an assault hex, but not plant a shell in ground?

I do agree with treadasaurusrex that they are likely to be overrun quickly. Which is probably before they have a serious chance to actually fire. Consider that they were just assaulted by attackers, probably on 13 or 18 column (maybe worse) and had a return strength of 1. But also consider, that having survived that assault, they cannot fire unless the attackers brought a tank with them. That seems rather weird.

[plloyd1010]

Okay we've got these 2 in the game:


Then there is British 3.7-infantry gun that has only appeared on close-support tanks:


Followed by the Soviet 76.2mm infantry gun that only exists in Vassal. Lastly the U.S. M3 105mm, which is the only infantry gun with bombardment factors, the way it was normally used.

It looks to me like their inclusion in the bombardment discussion is incongruous, except for comparison. That comparison seems to be 2 BF =  1 DF. I wonder how the German 150mm would really work in assault.

[goosebrown]

Okay we've got these 2 in the game:


Then there is British 3.7-infantry gun that has only appeared on close-support tanks:


These are direct fire weapons. We were talking about bombardment