AT fire in assault hexes

[plloyd1010]

Except that this line appears to muddy the water, I'd say yes.

At no time does an ASSAULT combat, either offensively or defensively, involve or instigate any AT Fire.  AT Fire requires an activation independent of the ASSAULT, offensively or defensively.

My breakdown:

1. When an assault is initiated, all units moving into the assault hex engage in assault combat. Rule 12.2 Thus no AT fire from those units. There may be AT fire from units which activated concurrently, but did not join the assault (move into the assault hex).
   
2. Units within an assault hex may activate to perform AT or assault combat as they are able, either concurrently or in separate activations.
   
   1. AT fire alone will not elicit a defensive fire response. Assault combat concurrent with AT fire will elicit a defensive fire response.
      
   2. All friendly units in an assault hex are subject to assault combat results against their side. (Implied, but not specified in the rules.) Ex: AT units firing concurrent with other units conducting assault combat.
      
3. AT fire may not be used in lieu of participating in defensive assault fire.
   
4. AT fire may be used in lieu of participating in a "free shot". Rule 12.12
   

How is that for a litigious round-up? I think it covers Craig's understanding.

[leonard]

Still some doubts...especially regarding item nr 3 in Peter's summary.

We were recently playtesting one scenario of Fire & Sword: see picture (sorry for bad quality).
The T34/85 has to exit through the north edge for victory conditions. The Soviet chooses to a Move action.
   

Then the T34/85 moves directly to the Panther on the left et declares an Overrun (See Optional rules). We have resolved the overrun like a normal assault : simultaneity, Soviet attacks on column 9 - 1 (overrun) -2 (town) = column 1, Panther defends on column 9 - 1 (overrun) = column 5. Result = nothing and the T34/85 passes through...
However, when re-reading the rules for overrun, it seems clear that the attacker and the defender may opt for Anti-tank fire instead of assault which seem to justify the otherwise strange exception in 12.52. In this case, the tanks would exchange simultaneous shots : T34/85 fires with 7 -1 (overrun) -1 (town) = 5 so that it needs 11 or 12 to hit, Panther fires with 8 -1 (overrun = movement ?) -1 (town) = 6 so that it needs 9 or more to hit.
What do you think ?

[plloyd1010]

Still some doubts...especially regarding item nr 3 in Peter's summary.

All that can say is. show where it says otherwise. The only place where the rules say that AT fire may be used in lieu of assault combat is at the end of rule 12.12. That rule deals with exiting the assault hex.

We were recently playtesting one scenario of Fire & Sword: see picture (sorry for bad quality).
The T34/85 has to exit through the north edge for victory conditions. The Soviet chooses to a Move action.

However, when re-reading the rules for overrun, it seems clear that the attacker and the defender may opt for Anti-tank fire instead of assault which seem to justify the otherwise strange exception in 12.52. In this case, the tanks would exchange simultaneous shots : T34/85 fires with 7 -1 (overrun) -1 (town) = 5 so that it needs 11 or 12 to hit, Panther fires with 8 -1 (overrun = movement ?) -1 (town) = 6 so that it needs 9 or more to hit.
What do you think ?

I would contend that whoever wrote the overrun rule, didn't think it through very well. This because the rule says, "Once the overrunning AFV(s) or cavalry enter the target assault hex, conduct the assault normally except that both sides suffer an additional -1 column shift..." I know that AT fire is referenced in the modifiers, but that is contrary to "conduct the assault normally".

I think the T-34 will move a hex and the Panther will take OpFire, the T-34 will move adjacent to the Panther and the Panther will OpFire again, the t-34 enters the Panther's hex and the assault (required combat, rule 12.2 occurs), the T-34 fires on the 1 column, the Panther on the 9. The T-34 exits the hex and the Panther gets a free shot. The panther on the right could take OpFire unless the T-34 moves into the north-west hex. (I would wait for a later activation to fire, assuming the T-34 somehow survived all that.)

[leonard]

The rules (12.4, 12.52) seem to induce that Overrun (+ Cavalry charges + Extended Assault) is an exception to the 3rd item of Peter's proposition. The Defender might choose AT fire as a sort of Opportunity Fire when the Attacker enters into the hex... I agree it is weird and probably poorly written or thought of.
By the way, the same exception mentioned in 12.52 covers the possibility of Opportunity fire against Cavalry units charging into the hex which is clearly forbidden by 15.31 (Cavalry Charge)...
Opportunity Fire in the same hex is not mentioned in the Extended Assault rule, neither.
Would it be possible to ask to John S what he had in mind ?

P.S. In the T34/85 vs Panther confrontation above, the German player did not anticipate the Overrun since it is a Move Action. So, there was no opportunity fire before the Assault. When the T34/85 exited the assault hex, the Panther fired, killed one step of the Soviet tank which stayed there Disrupted. Two more T34s then joined the fight ...

[plloyd1010]

First, as a matter of clarity, my question was about AT fire in an assault hex triggering a defensive fire response. So far the consensus is that it does not, only assault combat does, but AT units firing in the assault hex would still be subject to assault combat defensive fire if other units are engaging in assault combat. (Therefore I would take the AT shot first.)

About the T-34 example, it is true that there is (at present) no requirement to announce an overrun until the attacking unit enters the hex. In that sense I can see the Panther not expecting the attack. I still don't think I would pass up such a tempting target, especially since I would expect the T-34 to move out of LOS or at least to a more survivable position. Regardless, I don't expect the overrun to go well for the T-34.

Quick note: I think the rules as are do not allow multiple units to overrun together, because units are moved individually. Is there any disagreement about that?

[leonard]

No multiple overruns, no ! For the exact reason you gave.

[Hugmenot]

Peter's 2.2 and especially 3 are not clear cut.

4th edition really muddied the waters as what defending units can do in an assault.