Large Games and Fog of War

[cjsiam]

A curious thing is happening in a game I'm currently beating my head against.

It is relatively large scenario (24? Inf def 36 Inf Att, with ancillaries)....
In a situation where a defender is dug in.....units in the dug in status are getting demoralized.....
but due to FOG of war the Mandatory Recovery roll (that is required without FOW) is avoided...

What happens is those demoralized units remain in the hex...and continue to defend (even at 25%).....
FOG prevents them routing out of the hex as they never roll for recovery....

There is a 4.6% chance to roll 16,17,18.....that's about 5% -- so 1-in-20 rolls of the FOG should come up....

We end each turn with many demoralized units....for attacker--problem as they never roll to recover to possibly come back
For defender---seems to help...as they STILL must be removed to take the hexes....and with German officers 
near it can be very hard to clear the dug-in units...

I wonder if this was intended? or is it something overlooked?


Does the system expect that Even after FOW is rolled---the Demoralized units MUST ROLL anyway...
cj

[Hugmenot]

See Abusing horses and trucks.

That was my position 7 years ago when I was still new to the system. My regular opponent do not move trucks and wagons just to avoid undesirable recovery attempts except in some very, very rare cases when the demoralized units are in an assault hex and the other player is delaying activating his units in the hex by performing activation of dubious value. The question then becomes "Don't want to activate your units until you get your free shot, punk? We will see how you react when you roll FoW".

The Fog of War optional rule brings some desirable (imo) uncertainty to the game as a whole but it can give rise to some gamey situations. 

I accept that demoralized units who did not activate yet this turn will remain as is until next turn.

Note you control a hex if there are units of both sides in the hex but your opponent's units are all demoralized. 

[cjsiam]

See Abusing horses and trucks.

That was my position 7 years ago when I was still new to the system. My regular opponent do not move trucks and wagons just to avoid undesirable recovery attempts except in some very, very rare cases when the demoralized units are in an assault hex and the other player is delaying activating his units in the hex by performing activation of dubious value. The question then becomes "Don't want to activate your units until you get your free shot, punk? We will see how you react when you roll FoW".

The Fog of War optional rule brings some desirable (imo) uncertainty to the game as a whole but it can give rise to some gamey situations. 

I accept that demoralized units who did not activate yet this turn will remain as is until next turn.

Note you control a hex if there are units of both sides in the hex but your opponent's units are all demoralized. 

Thanks for that pointer---that was a good read....a number of players on both sides of the argument.....

I very much like the FOW rule---you have to consider your priorities, and maintaining some kind of unit integrity
  in location is reinforced....All things increasing the quality of the simulation (IMHO).

I'm wondering if the stricture might be that "When a FOW ends a turn--any demoralized units in contact with enemy (same hex? adjacent?) that are demoralized, must roll recovery--owner decides order"

Units spread all over you rear areas do not get forced...But units in contact...either in Assault hexes, or adjacent to people with guns who could kill them, do not get a pass.

The Gameyness is reduced....specifically the keeping units in assault hexes and getting away with not having to roll to recover (which would not happen in a non FOW game) is ended....if you are in contact with the enemy---and you are demoralized, you are going to roll, like it or not.

This is an optional-optional rule ....FOW + Mandatory Recovery for DEMORALIZED units.....

This would only apply to demoralized---disrupted are still in marginal control...they can attack, move 1 hex, etc....so you decide..you are in control....

I do think also the stray units, demoralized, that have run from combat out of range in a safe spot that NEVER recover because of FOW changes the nature of the game
vs. the Non-FOW game....and that's not necessarily going down well with me either....

So I think this comes down to a house rules thing....  But, as written, there is too much gamey opportunity---in a small # of units game, you don't see it as much--but when you
get into 30+ units/side....easily this shows up....so...that tends to break the simulation in a fundamental way for me.

ps. And the valuation of transports---wagons and trucks---I think there is merit there...context of single battle, not so much---but in any actual situation on the battlefield...yea, those
assets are going to be protected and are valued.... maybe a bidding thing? you bid to count/not count transports--and set victory point costs you'd gamble.... I think the issue is a single battle
perspective does NOT institute actual behavior---because in "Real Life" tomorrow matters...and you don't squander assets......But very hard to force into single battle games at the right level....
interesting....

[cjsiam]

So though I like the uncertainty that FOW forces into the game....
I am not liking all these demoralized/disrupted units that are left untouched
for what could be hours -- because you run out of Activations due to FOW....

So #1--- because I am highly nerdulent....I made a little simulation spreadsheet....
I include it (or will try  ) ... hitting 'F9' forces a reset and you can see a 20 turn game
and how FOW impacts...
In general players get 11-14 activation segments....each....in small games...you'd never notice...
but in a big game, they go quick....

So---I'm not disabused of the perspective that FOW leaving demoralized units in contact with
the enemy is an unrealistic 2nd order effect of FOW as written... I hear the "you lose control" argument...
but--that's YOU (the commander) that loses control---those groups of 30+ men are going to do something
and it's not "stay there patiently looking down the barrels of guns of enemy because it's handy for ME the COMMANDER"...
That is kind of NOT LOSING CONTROL....

[dxdavieau]

Fog of War rocks! It's not optional in my house. The sharp focus it brings to both sides is precious. Always, we're thinking; What is the most urgent activation, what MUST I get done before the turn ends...
That said, I've sometimes used a house-rule (heresy! ) where after Fog' ends the turn & before marker removal, I'll have both sides roll recovery on all un-activated demoralized leaders/units AND activate all kommissars

[cjsiam]

Fog of War rocks! It's not optional in my house. The sharp focus it brings to both sides is precious. Always, we're thinking; What is the most urgent activation, what MUST I get done before the turn ends...
That said, I've sometimes used a house-rule (heresy! ) where after Fog' ends the turn & before marker removal, I'll have both sides roll recovery on all un-activated demoralized leaders/units AND activate all kommissars

I think something along this line is appropriate.

The FOW focusing your attention and keeping you organized and in control is good---
The ability to play it to Game NOT having to roll demoralized units seems to me to defeat the "you lose control" mission....you are controlling the behavior of the demoralized
units by NOT being unable to prevent them from fleeing---you are effectively controlling them by removing the requirement by relying on FOW to end turn...

hmmmm....

[dxdavieau]

cjsiam said: ".......The ability to play it to Game NOT having to roll demoralized units seems to me to defeat the "you lose control" mission....you are controlling the behavior of the demoralized
units by NOT being unable to prevent them from fleeing---you are effectively controlling them by removing the requirement by relying on FOW to end turn..."

This is an excellent point, IMHO

[Shad]

The ability to play it to Game NOT having to roll demoralized units seems to me to defeat the "you lose control" mission....you are controlling the behavior of the demoralized units by NOT being unable to prevent them from fleeing---you are effectively controlling them by removing the requirement by relying on FOW to end turn...

By avoiding trying to rally demoralized units you are:

• keeping them near the danger zone in a demoralized and highly vulnerable state
  
• preventing yourself from bringing them back to good order and thereby having a positive impact on the battle
  
• potentially preventing yourself from moving a good order unit into that hex without incurring the 3 unit stacking penalty
  

The only time I think it's in your best interest to NOT try and rally every turn is when your units are acting as speedbumps in a restricted terrain area.

It's usually a good idea to wait until the end of your turn to try and rally DEM units, but I still always want a chance to rally.

[Hugmenot]

The only time I think it's in your best interest to NOT try and rally every turn is when your units are acting as speedbumps in a restricted terrain area.

It can be in your best interest to NOT attempt to rally the last demoralized unit in an assault, especially if the enemy units in the assault hex have yet to activate. If they activate and fail to recover, they will leave the hex and suffer a free shot. More importantly, the enemy units are no longer tied up in the assault and are free to move or fire at another target.

If you do have two or more demoralized units in an assault hex, you should activate only all but one unit to recover so that the units will be able to leave the assault hex without triggering a free shot should they all fail their recovery attempts.

[cjsiam]

The only time I think it's in your best interest to NOT try and rally every turn is when your units are acting as speedbumps in a restricted terrain area.

It can be in your best interest to NOT attempt to rally the last demoralized unit in an assault, especially if the enemy units in the assault hex have yet to activate. If they activate and fail to recover, they will leave the hex and suffer a free shot. More importantly, the enemy units are no longer tied up in the assault and are free to move or fire at another target.

If you do have two or more demoralized units in an assault hex, you should activate only all but one unit to recover so that the units will be able to leave the assault hex without triggering a free shot should they all fail their recovery attempts.

EXACTLY the situation a number of games recently have come down to---Dug-in units being assaulted....if they are demoralized you don't want them to have to try and recover--because they will die if they have to leave, either as a free shot---or having to exit into a firestorm of neighboring units---many times better to wait there and have the opportunity/threat of them recovering while they tie up the units.

We recently also has some discussion here regarding RECOVERY allowing you to STAY in the hex if leaving would put you into proximity---but Morale Check failure WOULD force you to exit the hex---so this would mean that you can drive out the demoralized unit by continuing to pound on him and force an MC failure---so you CAN get them out--it just takes some focus.

I recently had a game where german mortars in woods (2) stood up against T34s (2 of them) and had comparable Assault rolls (2 for mortars+AFV Alone+1+morale+1 officer going to 9; while the two T34 were 16 -1 for woods assault 13 going to 9..... EQUAL)....man was that a bad idea....got out as quick as possible and took turns to try and blast them...in the end one got away...even with 4T34 adjacent....man....