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+--- Thread: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! (/showthread.php?tid=618)
4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Shad - 09-10-2013
Word has come down from the mountain that a 4th Edition set of PG rules will be created. This is your chance to provide input into what should be changed, improved, clarified, etc. in the new edition. John Stafford from AP will be monitoring this thread.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Michael Murphy - 09-10-2013
Please clear up the bit about hill hexes. Please!
I would like to see something along the the lines of ...
Barring other terrain features, two units at the same level, and on the same hill, are not in limiting terrain with respect to each other. LOS between these units is limited normally by terrain and visibility. Units at the same level do not receive the -1 DF column shift for firing at each other.
There's something else you might want to consider. What would happen to a unit on a lower level hill when fired on by a unit at a higher elevation? Nothing if the target was at level 0. No hill modifier for him. Yet, raise both units each exactly one level higher, while maintaining the relative elevation between them. Behold, the target now gets a favorable column modifier. What's up with that?
Just my 2¢.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - vince hughes - 09-10-2013
Agree with Michael on all the above.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - vince hughes - 09-10-2013
When re-writing, be careful where the word UNIT and leader are used. It should be made clear as sometimes I think there has been a miss where perhaps unit has been used rather than leader or unit.
Want a counter with an arrow so units can be designated what side of the river they are on in a hex.
The old squad leader barb wire counters (which had no modifiers on) were far more attractive than PG barbed wire.
Swamp needs clarifying as it has different effects in different sets.
Same for hedgerows, hedges and bocage. There are 3 different iterarions I believe.
Penal unit rules need clarifying (for some). It needs to be made clear that they MUST advance to nearest enemies and that an activation is not able to be 'passed' so as to avoid activating them.
Lets get clarified what constitutes a 'tank' for the +1 bonus in assault combat.
Make obvious in the rules what fighting vehicles need 'foot' leaders to actate them (such as self-propelled artillery whether armoured or truck borne .... who activates them)
Lets insert Non-DEM ENG units when adding the +1 bonuses they get.
Lets clarify controlled hexes by adding a 'disputed' hex for VC's. Also clarify whether a DEM unit counts as controlling a hex if it was the last to enter the hex but was fleeing.
In assault modifiers, add to the non-DEM leader that he does not affect AFV's but DOES modify APC's.
As there is no overrun, how about a +1 column for assaulting a hex with ordnance only enemy. (I still don't like a lone mortar platoon being able to stop a stack of tanks running through it but .... )
Needs to be clarified whether cavalry can charge a unit they can not see ? (sounds daft, but it came up in a game Wayne and I played)
As much as I like their freedom of movement when I have them, I think MTC's need some kind of dismount rule before engaging and DF. (Perhaps a simple +1 MP)
Can we make gun dragging universal throughout the game system rather than differet types or even none from module to module.
Does the 75mm IG warrant a +2 DF modifier against it. Very small silhouette and many times its better to keep them at the back of a battle and not get them involved to save the VP loss for when they are wiped out.
HIP perhaps for all AT guns that set-up on board at scenario start. They are too often bombed to bits before even get a chance to take part. However, rather than allocate them normal hidden unit rules, they should be open to normal spotting. Therefore, if in a limiting terrain, they are spotted from 3 hexes rather than 1 hex as per normal hidden units.
Surrender rules need to go in main rule set as again, there are different iterations. South Africa's war are the best and it should be made clear that units calling for surrender should stay adjacent and not move along doing it.(see the Desert Rat surrender rules that if read to the word, allow such a thing).
How about a rule for morale no higher than 10 for any UNIT (not leader) after all mods etc
Minefields: To avoid gameyness, lone leaders and trucks should not be allowed to scout minefields. APC's fine, but trucks NO.
Tanks as transports: Lots of rules missing from the 'special ones'. Can't remember which, but a player (long since gone who was frustrated with the rules loop-holes' posed a number of questions about when they are fired at. There were no answers in the rules. Maybe one of the other posters here will remember tankdudes Q's. But they were valid.
Thats a few for now, I'll try and think of some more.
I have purposely left out anything I remember as added to the annotated rules or dealt with in the PGHQ doc.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Brett Nicholson - 09-10-2013
I'll go with however the rules may change in regards to hills but in my opinion, the only reason that a -1 direct fire modifier in hills at the same level may make sense is that yes, they may be at the same general altitude but far from being flat, open ground but uneven at best. I suppose that would depend on the actual geographical location of the battlefield but in the case of a lot of ridges, very craggy with lots of rocks for cover though maybe still not at a drastic elevation change. In my opinion if it is just a bare, flat, open lump of earth then it would only affect LOS and/or movement but if actual hills used for defensive advantage then they would have to be very rugged. I haven't heard much of units just rolling over hills in actual battles, that taking hills at any elevation is tedious and costly.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - enrique - 09-10-2013
4th edition rules
Proposals
1.2 Definitions
Control. The same definition as in "Infantry Attacks":
"A hex is controlled by the player whose combat units
were the last ones to occupy the hex exclusively. If one or more
units of both sides currently occupy the same hex, then neither
side currently controls the hex. In scenarios where one side sets
its units up on the board and the other side’s units enter from one
or more board edges at game start, all hexes on the board begin
play under the control of the side that sets up on the board. In
scenarios where both sides set units up on the board at game start,
each hex begins play under the control of whichever side sets
up units in or closer to it (unless scenario rules say otherwise).
Hexes which begin play equidistant from units of both sides
start under the control of the player who set up first, per scenario
instructions. In scenarios where no units set up on the board at the
start of the game (both sides’ units enter during play), all hexes
begin play under nobody’s control and remain uncontrolled until
physically occupied by at least one combat unit of one side or the
other".
Safe hex
"A town, woods or other hex where a unit cannot be spotted and/or fired on by enemy units with Direct or AT fire (whichever fire type could hurt it), and any hex where a unit can not be assaulted by enemy units".
3.1 Action segments (2nd point)
Replace "All units stacked together in the same hex activating at once, with or without leaders"
for
"Some or all units stacked together..."
4.1 Stacking Limits
Add: "Units in excess of stacking limits at the end of the segment are eliminated (owning player’s choice)".
5.63 Limbering and Unlimbering (Mortars)
Add: "Limbering or unlimbering a mortar unit costs all of that unit’s MPs and takes up its entire activation (place a MOVED/FIRED marker on it immediately after flipping it)". That is,a mortar can not "flip" and move in the same action segment.
5.64 Self-Propelled Artillery
Add: "They can be activated by all friendly regular leaders AND tank leaders."
5.75 Combat Effects of Rivers
Delete this rule: "If the ENG assisting a crossing becomes disrupted or demoralized, so do all friendly units in the hex with it at the time".
6.6 Kommissars
Add: "They may not assist demoralized AFVs".
(To be continued)
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - campsawyer - 09-10-2013
Important safety tip for folks posting ideas for rules...
John S. is starting with the annotated rules that are located here on PG-HQ and will be using the clarifications as a start of the updates. So, consider anything in there already part of the update mix. He will also be looking are adding in some updates from IA and MG. So you don't have to post anything about any annotated rules, but if you do have ideas about adding IA or MG rules please post a vote for them on the thread.
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Matt W - 09-10-2013
For the counter set there has been discussion of "Op Fire 1" and on the flip side "Fired" or "Moved/Fired", illumination markers, different colored DIS/DEM to distinguish between stacks, "Digging In/Dug In" and now river side markers. Any extra thoughts? We still have to fit all the markers on a single sheet!
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - emperor_nero - 09-11-2013
Please add picture diagrams....
Is that okay to ask?
RE: 4th Edition Rules - comment now or forever shut yer trap! - Hugmenot - 09-11-2013
It's always OK to ask.
And I agree with you 100%.